|Aqua Jive in the foreground, yellow Pyranha Z.One in back|
The Necky Jive isn't exactly a new kayak. It's been out of production for several years. In fact, Necky no longer makes whitewater kayaks at all. So why is this boat worth a review? Because it surfs. Really well.
Now that I'm back to living on the coast I plan to get in a lot more surfing. It's one of the things that really hooked me on kayaking when I started - surfing in a whitewater kayak. In fact, that was why I bought my first kayak. A Prijon Fly. It was pretty much the same thing as the Dagger RPM. A great design for its time but really not the best ocean surfing boat. My surfing buddy had a Jive and always was getting more and better rides. Over the years I've had the chance to paddle Jives on the ocean and the river. Recently I was lucky enough to pick up a used Jive in great shape and after one river session and one surf session it has reminded me why it's such a great surf boat. So what makes a good surfing boat, you ask? Let's look at the Jive and find out.
The Jive has good speed. It's fairly long (I paddle the 8'10" version, there's also an 8'3" version). It doesn't have that much rocker - the ends are fairly flat so it has a long water line. It's also noticeably more narrow than most modern whitewater boats. But that stuff matters on flat water, when you're trying to catch the wave. Once you're on a wave and gravity is doing the acceleration the Jive starts to plane. It has a very flat bottom that starts to skip on top of the surface. This allows it to reach speeds much faster than you could by just paddling. All boats can plane, but the wide, flat bottom of a boat like the Jive make it easier. So the Jive has good speed when catching waves and then great speed when it's on the wave. Speed is fun.
But speed isn't everything. You also want control. A nice hard edge allows you to dig into the water and turn on the wave. The Jive has a hard chine that allows it to steer with a little body lean. Performance surf kayaks will have a really shard rail that carves great turns - sometimes when you don't want it to. The Jive has a good balance of edges that dig in when you want but stay loose enough when the boat is flat (in the picture you can see the slight double chine that softens it up a bit). That's more helpful on a river where you get mixed currents, but it gives the Jive a little bit of forgiveness which can also be nice in the surf.
Another important characteristic for kayaks is the volume distribution. You want to have some volume, especially upfront, so that you don't get buried in the water. But not too much, especially in the stern, that you can't slice into the water when you need it. The Jive strikes a nice balance in both areas. Both ends are fairly thin and pointed but there's plenty of volume around your knees that help keep the bow from getting buried. This also helps it work well as a river runner, the volume giving it some stability in bigger/harder water.
Overall the Jive is a bit like a longboard. It's great speed allows you to catch smaller/less steep waves and have fun riding them. Even more, when things get really big and you want to scream down the line and get out of the tube before it collapses - that's when you want a Jive. (OK, you really would prefer a composite surf kayak at that point, but that's not what we're talking about here). On the medium waves it isn't as loose and fun as some of the newer boats - we also have a Pyranha Z.One in the quiver that is great for that - but the Jive still gives you the thrill of speed.
On the river things have evolved. Modern kayaks are designed for doing tricks on waves more than surfing them. Boats have more rocker which is more forgiving and most long boats have a lot of volume to help provide stability. The Jive really doesn't compete with modern river runners or playboats. The general outfitting, the grab handles in particular, really aren't up to today's standards. But that's not why you buy a ten year old plastic boat (the Jives are very heavy 'cause they were made with lots of plastic - a great thing when you want to slide a boat over rocks repeatedly). You buy it for the old school speed, old school surfing. That's what the Jive is and it's hard to find anything better.
Here's a little video of me surfing in a different Jive.
Thanks for the great review! I could get my hands on an old Necky Rip for cheap, but wonder if it really compares to the Jive in the surf... any experience with the Rip, too?ReplyDelete
I never paddled a Rip but it's pretty similar. I believe it's longer than the Jive and maybe not as responsive. They made some composite ones that were pretty sweet for surfing big waves. If it's cheap, it will definitely be worth the money.Delete
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Great tip. I'm a sea kayaker, been taking my sea kayak into the waves, which works great for everything except turning. Picked up a Jive after reading your article, learned to roll, and having 20x more fun now. Absolutely love the thing.ReplyDelete
Glad to hear it. Short boats just do so much more in the surf!Delete
What do you think a used one is worth?ReplyDelete
It's at least a ten year old boat - that's when they stopped making them. If you're selling, it's worth what you can get for it; if you're buying, it's worth what you're willing to pay. They do have good plastic that tends to hold up well, but how it was used/stored will make a big difference on what condition it's in. Most seem to go somewhere in the $200-300 range if they're in decent shape.Delete
Hi. I learned white water in a savage Scorpion in 1997. Then onto the Ocoee, nanty, chatooga, etc in a smaller 7'8"Eskimo Quadro. Loved it!ReplyDelete
But it wasn't very fast in the ocean compared to my now-beat-up waveski.
Back then, I used to want a jive. I recently found one locally for sale but it is 8'4". It has less volume then the Eskimo, but is 6" longer. Do you think I will have fun in it, or be disappointed after throwing around a waveski?
I am 195lbs and 6' tall. Size 12 shoes. Watcha think?
There's an 8'4" Jive and an 8'10" Jive. At your height and weight you'd want the 8'10" and that still might be tight on your feet. You might want to look at the new crop of whitewater kayaks designed with old-school surfing in mind - Pyranha Ripper, Dagger Axiom, Liquid Logic Mullet, or Soul Waterman 303. But to be honest, all of those will feel slow and clunky compared to a waveski. A composite surf kayak will be much closer, but those tend to be expensive and rare. Good luck!Delete
The fast and longer whitewater boats are great for throwing ends, multiple 360s down a wave face and changing directions and even surfing backwards on a wave. The best is doing corkscrews in a big tube and being thrown out of a tube then bouncing and spinning when you land.ReplyDelete
I have tried tiny new whitewater boats in the surf. They might be fun bouncing around and doing wild moves, bit they are slow and you cannot go as fast as the wave or outrun a tube. They keep you stuck in the mush of the wave, bouncing and trying to look cool.. not really surfing at all. Fun, but crappy speed with tiny boats. The longer older boats seem are definately faster and often can outrun surfboards if you know how to surf in the ocean. Also better wave acquisition than a surf board. You can chase a wave down by paddling smart, and surf twice the waves of a board in a given time. Hurricane waves that keep sad surfers on shore can be had as you punch through waves or sky over them just as they peak. This is why a longish, mostlt flat, sharp chined white water boat is great for surfing.
Good to hear from you Bryant.ReplyDelete
So you feel I may be too heavy and big for the 8'4" Jive?
I've never tried one, but I also don't want to buy it and sit too low on the water or struggle to keep the stern up.
I bought a piranha inazone 230 for a few bucks 5 years ago. It suffered stern sag in the surf and was so slow. I sold it ok, but I don't want to buy too small a boat again.
Maybe I should spend a couple hundred bucks and just fix and surf my old waveski. It is fun.
I own a Necky Rip. 9'3" long, flat planing hull, so only 4" longer than the 8'11" Jive. It's basically a surfboard with a cockpit and a slight rocker. The profile is very similar to the Jive but it's a lower volume boat because it doesn't have the stern 'camel hump' of the Jive. I am learning the boat now, which, after a Dagger Mamba, is a whole new world.ReplyDelete
I've moved backwards and sideways in my surfing boats, from a perception dancer to a jive, to a super-ego, and back to a rip. They all have their special qualities, and I enjoy the rip on Long sloping waves, while the superego is great for spins and sharper waves. a good conclusion would be to buy as many old school kayaks as you can fit under your house, and bring a few each time you hit the beach.ReplyDelete
First, great article Bryant...Looking back at my paddling progression over the years, those old school Necky WW boats just surf really well. I still own 2 Rips, 1 Jive and 1 Zip. The Rip is one of my favorite boats for rock-garden surfing. I don't use the Jive very often because I have 2 composite surf boats, Salsa and WaterTech Speedy. I use the Zip when I travel to Hawaii, because it surfs like a demon, looks like a surfboard when packed (I check it as a surfboard for $100 oneway) and a plastic boat can take the punishment from the baggage handling monkeys. Over the years, I surfed many old school playboats Centrifuge, super ego, XXX, I3, Inazone. All of them were fun on the water. However, the Necky boats out performed them. Just as the RPM is still produced in limited numbers, the Jive (as the Rip) is another one of those timeless designs that does not get the recognition is deserves from the paddling community. Riding on a wave in a Jive is so much more exhilarating than bouncing down a wave sideways in a spud boat...ReplyDelete
Oh, I prefer the Rip over the Jive because it is quicker edge to edge. The Rip is more narrow with a continuous rocker. Either boat is fantastic in the waves and great to learn ocean kayak surfing.
I've been looking for both a 8'10" jive and a 8'4" jive. If anyone has one that they are looking to get rid of, I'd be interested. I'm based out of the SF bay area.ReplyDelete
The mention of the Prijon Fly being similar to the RPM is a bit off. The RPM had a very traditional hull cross section - rounded nose to tail. The stern half of the Fly was fairly flat, with harder chines. This meant it was easier to surf and looser on the wave. The first boat to have this flatter stern hull profile was the Piranha Stunt Bat in the early nineties. For some reason, Dagger and Perception took a very long time to see the potential of this feature.ReplyDelete